WW-2 Romania again

kiasutha · Post by **kiasutha** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 10:25 pm

Just another suggestion to speed the outfitting of our loyal allies-

The Bohler (IT-13 pack) 47mm ATG was pretty-much the standard regimental infantry-gun of Romania. Unfortunately most were horse drawn.
However, the gun was also used in motorised infantry formations, and at least sometimes drawn by German Horch type cars (Kfz-15, I believe-G-77 pack).
A photo of a 4-gun battery so-equipped is in Osprey 246 "Romania WW-2".

Since both parts are available, how about adding this to the new RA line?

The 37mm Bofors ATG in the Polish and British packs was also very common in Romanian infantry units; many hundreds of captured Polish ones being bought from Germany. I haven't see photos that confirm what motor vehicles might have served as tows; (mostly "old Dobbin" again) anyone else perhaps? One might guess many of the light German or other foreign vehicles would serve- maybe the P-11 pack as is? I'm still trying to find out just how much ex-Polish equipment was sold to the Balkan allied states...
Jim R.

Mk 1 · Post by **Mk 1** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 11:05 pm

Yep, the Bohler gun as is in the IT-13 pack would serve well for Romanians. I already have mine.

The Bofors 37mm is another excellent choice.

But there are several choices of tows for the gun. Horse-drawn, as mentioned, was most common. But that is also true among almost every other European WW2 army except the Brits. We could certainly use more horse limbers.

That said, two other choices present themselves. The French UE prime mover was license-built in Romania, and commonly used to tow AT guns of any caliber. And the French Laffly W15 light 4WD truck was also used to tow AT guns at least as often as the German Horst. GHQ does not yet make the Laffly, but they already show it on their list for the comming year. By the time you are buying your Romanians, it will be available.

And let's not forget that the Renault AHS truck was used in fair numbers by the Romanians too. But it was a more general purpose transport rather than an ATG prime mover.

However, I'm not sure why GHQ has listed the Schneider 47mm gun for the Romanians. I have not found information on that gun being in Romanian service, at least not in any substantial numbers. As the war progressed, Romania acquired a fair variety of guns in low volume, but to have the Schneider in any numbers it would have been a pre-war acquisition, and the French were using every one they could build.

Other choices include any piece of early war Soviet kit. The Romanians captured quite a bit, and put 45mm M32 and M41 guns into widespread service. So also the Soviet 76.2mm guns were used, although the M1939 was probably the most common, and this is not in the GHQ line-up. The M1936 would probably serve, but most were taken by Germany (who prized this prize). The GHQ "Crash Boom" is the M1942, which was not in Soviet service at the time when the huge encirclements lead to masses of war booty.

Romanian infantry also used Polish AT rifles, sold to them by the Germans. Don't know if those will be in the infantry support kit, but if not, might be nicked from a Polish pack.

Lost of fun stuff available to one who wants to build a Romanian force. Now if I could only get 'round to painting what I've already got!

kiasutha · Post by **kiasutha** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 2:10 am

Hi Mk-1:
Actually, I've been piecing them together for quite a while now; it will be easier with proper infantry coming though...Working on my Hungarians too.
My Bohlers came when they were on-sale several months ago, Malaxa tractors (Renault UE) entered inventory at the same time.
I've also been picking up Skoda "100's" from the Italians. And...<G>

I suggested the Horch for the Bohler gun because I've seen photo documentation for the combination, could give a source, and of course it is already available.
I assumed GHQ would be more likely to package something I could give easily available documentation for... Me? I've already transfered some (Horch) from German stocks.

I wish I could remember the sources right now (at least one was from Romania), that confirm they bought the Schneider 47mm ATG; but I think just when was unclear.
I remember no real indication of numbers either; and I'd also like to know how they managed to get hold of them.
Politics perhaps? The jockeying for influence in the Balkans was rather "intense".
With the "great love" between Hungary & Romania, and Germany helping arm the former, maybe the French decided to "take a chance" on the situation...?

The Malaxa was mentioned as the normal tow for the Romanian Schneiders, btw..
Could they have made the gun under French license as with the tractor? I don't know, but they were certainly quite capable of it. Vickers 75mm AA, anyone?<G>
Some of the same sources said they bought French 25mm ATG's as well, but weren't too impressed by the performance when they got to "Russland".

Renault truck; yes, seen several photos- but none as gun-tows, as you mentioned.
I'm looking forward to the Lafley truck too.

Gads, Yes we need more horse drawn limbers, wagons etc., especially with the east front "coming into its' own! I've been looting in Poland for those, too...

I'm also eyeing our Russian friends for booty, but one must "catch them" first.<G>
A PAK-38/97 would be another "good one" to have...

The Schneider question harkens back to the same thing about the Hungarian Skoda 47.
I think the Hungarians had small numbers, but the Germans were using all they could get until the PAK-38 got "common". By that time, how many were left to pass on?

Hungary used lots of Bohler 47mm's, and some Belgian 47's got from Germany.
But AFAIK, early war their most common ATG was a Hungarian copy of a PAK 35/36- fitted with a license built 40mm "Bofors" barrel.
So as very glad as I am to finally have the Skoda 47, it seems an odd choice too.

And still a bit off topic, but isn't the Hungarian Raba Botand truck actually a Mavag built copy of a Henschel medium truck? Hmmmm....

Yes, so much to paint, so little gets done. And the postman just brought us a package from "EXTRACRISPY"...
Regards,
Jim R.

Mk 1 · Post by **Mk 1** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 8:48 am

kiasutha wrote:Hi Mk-1:
Actually, I've been piecing them together for quite a while now ...

See what a good choice it was for GHQ to go for Romanians next?

I've also been picking up Skoda "100's" from the Italians. And...<G>

I bought up a fair bit of kit for my Romanians over the past year and a half. Got the Bohler guns, the UEs, some Brand-X Laffleys (scout cars, not gun tows), R-2s (Pz 35t), some Renault AHS trucks (can do multiple service as I also have French continental and Tunisian forces), French 75s (common light artillery for Romanian infantry formations), Italian (Skoda) 100s, and even some Horsche trucks (from a buddy who does Germans). I also bought some Italian infantry to serve as my Romanians, stripped out the LMGs (which went to my Italian forces), and got some French LMGs to replace them (very similar appearance) and also some French mortars to plug in. Still trying to figure out how I'll get a couple ATRs.

And then ... GHQ came out and announced their upcoming Romanian forces.

And I just know I'll buy it all.

I wish I could remember the sources right now (at least one was from Romania), that confirm they bought the Schneider 47mm ATG; but I think just when was unclear.

If you do come across your source, I'd love to see it. I've seen references to Scheider guns in Romanian service, but I had interpreted them all as ref's to the 75s.

... and I'd also like to know how they managed to get hold of them.
Politics perhaps? The jockeying for influence in the Balkans was rather "intense".
With the "great love" between Hungary & Romania, and Germany helping arm the former, maybe the French decided to "take a chance" on the situation...?

Actually if you look at Romanian politics in the 1930s France was the closest they had to an ally. Their biggest adversaries were the Soviet Union and Hungary, with Poland also as a possible source of conflict. Germany was not liked, primarily because of the historical ties to Hungary. Italy had been an arms supplier in the 1920s, but kind of fell out of favor. The relationship with Czechoslovakia was growing to replace the former slot held by Italy, but with more wide-reaching diplomatic relations.

And then came Munich, followed by the German invasion of the rest of Czechoslovakia. At that point Germany started making diplomatic approaches to Romania, which placed them in a very difficult position. When the Nazis announced their non-aggression pact with the Soviets and invaded Poland, leading to declarations of war by the French and Brits, Romania was in crisis. All of their enemies were united, most of their friends were gone, and the one that was left was in no position to help them. So they took the German overtures and turned that relationship into the cornerstone of their diplomacy.

Or at least that's how I understand it. Don't claim to be an expert on Romanian politics by any means...

The Malaxa was mentioned as the normal tow for the Romanian Schneiders, btw..

Per my reading it was the normal tow only in the mechanized formations. Foot-bound formations either had horse-limbers or light trucks. For the trucks, the Laffley was the more common early-war, and the Horsche became common by 1943 or 44, I think.

Could they have made the gun under French license as with the tractor? I don't know, but they were certainly quite capable of it. Vickers 75mm AA, anyone?<G>

Would be interested to know. They were certainly capable of making cannon. They did start producing their own AT gun in 1943, which was similar in performance to the Pak40. But I don't know about the French 47.

A PAK-38/97 would be another "good one" to have...

Yes. That was actually one of the most common late-war Romanian AT guns, in service in quantities almost equivelent to their own model Paks.

And still a bit off topic, but isn't the Hungarian Raba Botand truck actually a Mavag built copy of a Henschel medium truck? Hmmmm....

I should know this. I remember reading up on it. I am very confident that the Raba was a copy of another truck, but I'm not sure which one. I think there was a Chevy model truck built in Hungary too, but I don't know if it was the Raba Botand.

Do post up some pics if/when you get your Romanians into shape. Would surely love to see 'em. I think it was BatterBritain who posted up some Romanians a year or more back, and I was very inspired!

Never hurts to inspire the GHQ followers. Sure must stimulate some sales, if my own history is at all characteristic.

Well, more to build, more to collect, more to read-up on. Nothing wrong with that. Just getting behinder and behinder on my painting is all...

kiasutha · Post by **kiasutha** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 9:46 am

hi Mark 1 & all:
Well, we certainly seem to share an interest here!
It's late & been a long day, but for now, I want to correct myself on the Hungarian Raba-Botand truck.
Checking, I find it is indeed a Mavag built copy of a German truck, but not Henschel.(where did that come from, I wonder...?)
Actually, it was "MAN"; Machinenfabrik Augsburg/Nuremburg".
And to our German friends-please excuse my spelling- it's been a very long time since school for me!
Mark 1, I'd be much in agreement with your rendition of the Romanian situation, political, military, etc. What a mess to be in !
As to the Schneider 47mm, perhaps the mention of the Malaxa was "casual" and not absolute. Or perhaps it does mean they were available only in limited numbers and were deployed to important mechanized formations as a result...
I will try to find the sources, but I've been through a lot of stuff, & got awful sloppy about it. Too many irons in the fire this year...
BTW, the photo I have of the Bohler/Horch combo is dated 29 August, 1941.
It also indicates a mech unit is likely; suggests 1st. armoured division.

Ah yes; French 75's, bought a bunch of those too. our aquisition lists are rather, ummm, similar. But I've been limiting myself to the two well-known "domestic suppliers". Fortunately, GHQ is being helpful these days, eh?
I guess I'm lucky one way though; I hadn't started buying "stand-in" infantry yet.
It looks like I will for the Hungarians though. I can always re-paint them later...
Regards,
Jim R.

kiasutha · Post by **kiasutha** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 2:30 am

Ah, here I go again...
Mk.1 & anyone else following this- take a look at www.worldwar2.ro/
You will be there a LONG time. It is Romanian based, as is most of the source material (hard to beat that) but in english as well. I should get on their forum...
Masses of info, and some great photos, includind Schneider and Bohler 47mm's, Bofors 37's, Schneider 105 and 155mm etc. Yah, I love artillery, can you tell? <G>
(yes, i've already got the French 105's "in stock" too...)

I don't know how they did it, but they seem to have aquired quite a few of those schneider 47's- supposedly 6 per infantry division and at least double that in 1st. armored, with more mechanized batteries (Malaxa) at army level.
Malaxa also mentioned as tows in some divisional units; and for the Bohler in cavalry brigades...and so on-have fun reading it...

Now GHQ; how about some Schneider and Skoda "6 inchers", and some Czech prime movers too...<GG>
Regartds,
Jim R.

dnichols · Post by **dnichols** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 2:45 am

Here is a rather informative addition to the discussion that I got from John Fernandes (Designer of Micro-Armour: The Game) yesterday in an e-mail.

"I've noticed that quite a few people are questioning why the French 47mm ATG was included in the Rumanian section of the new GHQ catalog; The following comes from Page 29 of the book Third Axis, Fourth Ally (available for about $300.00 if, like me, you are obsessive about getting your facts straight). The following appears in the last three paragraphs at the bottom of the page:

"Romanian rearmament was especially closely tied to the Allied Czech armament industry, from which 70% of imported weapons were contracted and from which it was intended progressively to assimilate production licences for all 7.92mm infantry weapons and divisional artillery. The CMC small arms factory was set up by the Czech Zbrojovka factory, and came into full production at Cugir in 1938. By June 1941 the Czechs had delivered more than 18,000 ZB30 light machine-guns and CMC at least 5,000 - sufficient to equip the whole army. It was intended to licence-build the ZB37 HMG at CMC from July 1940, but the Germans canceled the deal because they needed the machine tools to supply their own units with the weapon. Instead 3,500 were imported by June 1941, and another 2,000 by mid-1943. In addition, 700,000 ZB24 rifles were ordered. Sufficient had arrived to re-equip all of the infantry regiments by June 1941, and the mountain and cavalry regiments by early 1942. However, by mid-1943 only 445,640 had been received, and planned local production was never begun because the Germans decided to produce the weapon themselves. Thus its issue never became universal.

It was also decided to replace half of the 75mm, 76.2mm, and 77mm divisional artillery with more powerful 100mm light howitzers. To supplement the modernised Skoda M14/34s, 248 Skoda M30 and M34 100mm light howitzers were imported from Czechoslovakia in the mid-1930s, and another 252 were bought from the Germans in 1940-41. Additionally, 180 Skoda M34 150mm medium howitzers were bought in 1936-39 to form half the motorised corps and army artillery. Replacement 100mm and 150mm barrels came to be manufactured by ASTRA during the war, but not whole guns.

The French were the (Romanians) second major arms supplier. Romania ordered 125 60mm mortars, 188 81.4mm mortars, 160 Schneider 47mm anti-tank guns, 180 Schneider M36 105mm medium guns and 200 13.5mm and 300 25mm Hotchkiss AA guns directly from France. However the Fall of France interrupted these deliveries after only 144 Schneider M36 105mm guns, 72 25mm Hotchkiss AA guns and all the mortars, 13.5mm Hotchkiss and Schneider 47mm AT guns had been delivered. France also sold licences to the Voina Factory for 175 Brandt 60mm mortars and 410 Brandt 81.4mm mortars and to the Concordia factory for 140 Schneider 47mm AT guns, all of which were produced throughout the war in numbers far in excess of those specified in the original licence."

O.K. what all this says is that the Romanians had in their possession some 160 French 47s when they went to war and produced that gun far in excess of the 140 they were licenced to produce during the war. it would therefore be logical to assume the Schneider 47mm was a common Romanian weapon."

An interesting addition to the discussion, thank you John.

---Daryl

kiasutha · Post by **kiasutha** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 4:46 am

Ah, Thanks very much to poster and source alike !
I'll save & add that to my Romanian info collection.
I didn't realise there were many doubts about the French 47; I had none about its' use, but was interested in more information on quantity & source when the question arose.
I remember more questions having being asked about the Hungarian Skoda 47mm, actually.
Do you gentlemen have any documentation on that one?
I'm sure I've seen references to them using it; but be darned if I can find anything now.

As for being obsessive about facts; Well, most of us are hobbyists and do the best we can without that kind of budget. Great to be "in the business" sometimes, eh? <G>
I knew about that book, but... So I'm afraid GHQ gets most of the wargame bucks.
Which makes this forum a great tool to have; Thanks again for sharing the info !

So not only did the French "deliver" , but they sold a license as I'd suspected.
The same "production situation" occured with the Vickers (Resita I believe) 75mm AA gun.
I wonder if Vickers got their royalties; I kind of doubt it. <G>
Anyway, very good to actually know, along with everything else you included.
BTW, the photo section of the website I posted has a nice shot of a Romanian French 47mm ATG; I believe in action on the Odessa front...

Looks like we're in for several packs for sure
I don't suppose anyone can tell us the tractor GHQ is including?
I'm expecting the Malaxa/ Renault UE, but you never know...

GHQ, please put that Hotchkiss 25mm AA gun on the list; I'm making do with Breda stand-ins for now. Oh yah, the frenchies could use some too...<G>
Regards,
Jim R.

Mk 1 · Post by **Mk 1** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 11:56 am

kiasutha wrote:Ah, here I go again...
Mk.1 & anyone else following this- take a look at www.worldwar2.ro/
You will be there a LONG time.

Ah yes. I am well familiar with that site. Excellent material. Interesting forum, too.

Oddly, everything I saw at that site prior to today contributed by my (admittedly erroneous) impression that the Schneider 47mm gun was not common in Romanian service. Among an excellent selection of pictures on that site, there are several of the Bohler 47mm gun, a few of the Bofors 37mm, even one of the Puteaux 25mm, but no pictures of the Schneider 47mm in Romanian service.

And from the weapons listing they have descriptions of several AT guns, but while they have a listing for the Schneider, they have no information on it at all.

In fact, going through the site again in some detail, I have now found one place, in the discussion forum, that provides a little information on the French 47 in Romanian service. Other than this one mention, the site seems almost mum on that particular gun.

(Of course, I could well have missed some other significant mention. More than once in my life I have overlooked something that was right in front of my eyes. Just ask my wife about my looking for car keys or my glasses sometime.)

dnichols wrote: O.K. what all this says is that the Romanians had in their possession some 160 French 47s when they went to war and produced that gun far in excess of the 140 they were licenced to produce during the war. it would therefore be logical to assume the Schneider 47mm was a common Romanian weapon."

So from that count, and from looking at the forum discussion, it appears that the 47mm Scheider was used as the standard arm of the AT gun company in each infantry division. That is, it was at the divisional level. It was deployed in 2x guns per section, 3x sections per platoon, 3x platoons to the company, for 18 guns total for the division. And the UE was the prescribed prime mover. It is suggested in the forum that most divisions that went into Russia were at, or near, full strength. The same was not at all true about the divisions that stayed at home.

At the regimental level the infantry divisions used the Bohler, which was seen as a dual-purpose AT and infantry gun, and when Bohlers were not available they used the Bofors. The Armored division, at least at the start of the Romanian "adventure" in Russia, used the Puteaux 25mm, which was towed by a truck. This was soon converted to a portee mount, as the Romanians found they could not tow it fast enough to keep up with the rate of travel of the tanks (several French guns were not really made for towing by modern vehicles).

An interesting addition to the discussion, thank you John.

Yes, thanks to John, to Daryl, and to Jim. An interesting discussion overall.

kiasutha · Post by **kiasutha** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 8:36 pm

Hi Mk 1:
It's a big website, & finding things isn't always easy...
On the main page, go to "organization" (actually organization and equipment)
Read through at least the sections on infantry, tank troops, and artillery.
You'll find lots more mention of the French 47mm there...
I do believe there is a picture in the photo section too, unless they mis-labelled it & I didn't notice; but I don't think so.
Regards,
Jim R.
BTW- regards the weapons page, which is mainly stats.-in searching the web, I've had generally very poor results finding info on this particular gun. Coincidence? i'm usually pretty good at digging things up...

HMSDiomede · Post by **HMSDiomede** » Thu Aug 09, 2007 1:31 am

A few photos (but depressingly little hard data) of the Romanian Schneider 47mm M1936 AT gun can be found here:

http://www.dws.xip.pl/bron/rumunia/ru26.html

The M1936 was an export version with fairly little in common with the French Mle.37 or Mle.39 guns

:

http://www.dws.xip.pl/bron/francja/f7.html

Although in 1/285 scale you may be able to cheat a little. The same Polish website has more on Romanian equipment in general:

http://www.dws.xip.pl/bron/rumunia/rumunia.html

David

kiasutha · Post by **kiasutha** » Thu Aug 09, 2007 2:32 am

Arrrgh!
Thanks David.
I use that same Polish web site for its' Hungarian info all the time.
But I never realised the Romanian section was there...
If GHQ uses the same gun for both, I'll live with it; I'm a "realist" about such things.
But we'll need more Malaxas; lest we be buried in surplus French 25mm atg's...

Jim R.

Mk 1 · Post by **Mk 1** » Thu Aug 09, 2007 5:49 am

kiasutha wrote:Arrrgh!

Arrrgh is right!

Ref to the weapons pictured and descibed here: http://www.dws.xip.pl/bron/rumunia/ru26.html

It appears that I blinded myself to what was actually on the Romanian miltiary website.

I saw that same weapon pictured, and saw the caption saying it was a Schneider 47mm gun, and dismissed it as having been mis-captioned photos of the French 25mm gun, as it is obviously not a picture of a "French 47mm" anti-tank cannon (at least not one that I knew, up to this moment).

In other words the Romanians bought an entirely different 47mm AT gun than the one the French used. So now I have just been bumped back to square 1.

What was this Schneider 47mm gun? What ammunition did it shoot. This is a significant question, as the 47mm round fired by the French SA35 47mm tank gun (as in the S-35 and Char B1 bis) was a very different beast than the round fired by the French SA37 anti-tank gun. Entirely different league of performance. The French SA35 gun performance was in the same league as the Bohler 47mm gun. The SA37 gun performance is better described as in the same league as the German Pak38 50mm gun.

I shall have to enquire with the folks I know who do research in l'Armee Francais archives. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm. Always more to learn, more to learn.

Gort · Post by **Gort** » Thu Aug 09, 2007 6:28 am

Mark

A place to try might be Tony Williams' site
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/index.htm

An amazing amount of info in there.

regards

Steve

Mk 1 · Post by **Mk 1** » Thu Aug 09, 2007 12:40 pm

Gort wrote: A place to try might be Tony Williams' site
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/index.htm

Steve:

Thanks. Excellent suggestion. That site is a wonderful resource on ammunition used by any of the well known, and many of the not-so-well known WW2 guns. I know Tony reasonably well (as a "forum buddy", though never met person).

In fact I went through the information on French 47mm guns from Tony's site prior to my last post. In both the cartridge pictures section and the ammo data tables, I can find references to the French 47mm x 193mm round, as used in the 47mm SA Mle 35 tank gun, and the 47mm x 380mm round, as used in the SA Mle 37 or SA Mle 39 AT guns. I find no reference to any round for a Mle 1936 Schneider gun.

There is a big difference in performance between the two. And I ponder which of these two rounds, or perhaps which other round, the gun the Romanians bought used.