current state of russia's military

[kilroy]

I like the scenario Kilroy but make a couple of minor changes. First do the battle with Israel and have Egypt support Israel and the US. This would allow the M1, Strykers, M2/M3's and all the Israeli stuff.

Well, the scenario was posted to inspire. it became public domain the moment I posted it. So have fun with it.

But keep in mind. Egypt is an Arab country, which has attacked Israel several times in the recent past. I seriously doubt that even Egypt, would side with Israel in an all out Arab Israeli war. I think that If Egypt saw an opportunity to Crush Zion, they would throw in with the rest of the Arab nations.

Of course, you could assume that Egypt decided to remain neutral, but was then attacked by Libya. That could bring them into the war on our side.

Fighting the initial attack on Israel would provide many hours of gaming enjoyment.

However, I haven’t found a Modern game system that I Like enough to fight such a battle.

I Might bend a little and try mien panzer. I don’t like there ww2 rules, but the modern stuff might work out ok.

As for China.

The Chinese feel that an all out war with the US is likely within the next 20 years. And they are working towards preparing there military for that eventuality. Maybe they aren’t ready NOW, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t doing there best to improve the situation. There economy is growing rapidly. And with economic growth comes the ability to build a modern and highly capable military.

People keep thinking that China must throw a million men into every battle to win. They assume that China is in-capable of building a highly modern and technologically advanced force. They make these assumptions while watching TVs, listening to Radios, and surfing the internet on computers, that all have an increasingly large amount of Chinese manufactured "high tech" components in them.

Remember, it didn’t take Nazi Germany long at all to build a highly effective military. And that was over 60 years ago. And they had to do allot of it in secret. A problem the Chinese DON’T have. The United States went from a comparatively pathetic military power, to the most powerful military force on earth in less than 5 years, built mainly on the power of our economy. It didn’t take us all that long at all to go from next to no ability to project serious power over seas in 1939, to operation OVERLORD in 1944.

A Country with a population of 1,321,851,888 people, and a rapidly expanding economy, is no joke. Especially compared to our slightly less than 300 million people here in the us.
So, yes. I believe that Modern gaming confrontation scenarios with china are Highly possible, given the right set of circumstances, and a little imagination.

[Timothy OConnor]

Kilroy,

Do you have any info on current Chinese TO&E? The Chinese-based battalions I'm working on use GHQ's Type 98 MBT and WZ551 wheeled APC (25mm AC).

For now I'm using a US OPFOR FM document for the TO&E since I can't find any solid, current info on Chinese mech infantry battalions.

http://www.ghqmodels.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2466

For the MBT battalion I'm simply using typical east bloc organization (10 tanks per company, etc.).

Tim

[kilroy]

Kilroy,

Do you have any info on current Chinese TO&E? The Chinese-based battalions I'm working on use GHQ's Type 98 MBT and WZ551 wheeled APC (25mm AC).

http://www.ghqmodels.com/pdf/26Peoples% ... 0China.pdf is the only real reference I have in that regard.

Because in 2000 the PLA apparently began a complete over haul of there military forces and structure.

The PLA has been very secretive about there military as of late. In 1999 it was believed that China only had about 8500 tanks. GHQs TO&E lists that number as around 10,500 just 2 years later.

I Should also mention, that in a cjhinese military parade in 2000, China appeared to have a very limited number of the new type 98 tanks. One of the battalions on parade, only had one company of 10. the rest of the battalions tanks being Mainly Type 88Ms or older. The source of that info was a US military observer at that parade. And even he did not appear to be sure of the precise make up of the new Chinese PLA TO&E, even after looking at it.

I would say go with what you know. but I would look forward about 5-10 years from now. Not backward. If something happens with China, I Doubt it would happen real soon. because the Chinese are more likely to be the aggressors in any confrontation. And I don't think they will be ready for us for a while.

But My point was, that they are Capable of building a very Dangerous military force quickly. Not necessarily that they have one quite yet.

If you are going to design a game or campaign with china, you need to come up with some sort of catalyst, or Hypothetical Scenario that would send China on the road to war with us.

Here Are A few off the top of my head.

2010, A Junta of Rogue North Korean generals, believing they have no other option to forestall the imenant collapse of the communist regime launches an all out attack on the south. After only 2 weeks time, the Militarily much more capable South, backed by US naval, Air, and limited ground forces, succeed in pushing the Antiquated and poorly supplied forces of the north into head long retreat and collapse. China begins to Mobilize its forces, and moves a quarter of a million men of the PLA to the north Korean / Chinese border.

Or, how about,

2009. Kim jung ill Dies of a massive heart attack. and Is succeeded by a junta of military Hardliners, who are fiercely anti western. The North Korean Nuclear weapons program moves into High gear, and in 2010, North Korea a tempts a low yield Nuclear armed test of an intermediate ranged missile. The Missile veers off course, and detonates on the Japanese mainland. (or even somewhere in southern China!) And the Chinese, (no matter where the missile lands) become fearful of such power in such Inept hands, and attack North Korea in an attempt to neutralize the Rouge regime. However, Chinese military Hardliners decide to keep going, after a "suspiciously accidental" clash with ROK and US forces, Bent on the same goal just south of Pyongyang.

Or How about,

A Massive 9.3 scale earth quake rocks eastern India, Killing over 265.000 people outright, and displacing tens of millions. many of whom flee towards the Chinese boarder. The Chinese military, un able to peacefully halt the massive Migration, decides to use military force in an atempt to contain the refugees. Tens of thousands of un armed, starving, and homeless people are massacred. India, Un able to effectively meet the Chinese PLA in the field, due to the massive damage to there infrastructure in the east, Launches a Nuclear first strike against China, who then retaliates in kind. Fortunately, the Nuclear forces of both sides are relatively Small, and the result of the nuclear exchange is simply Horrific instead of out right catastrophic. However, neither side is willing to back down. Even thoughr, the PLA has the Obvious upper hand in the conflict, and shows no apparent inclination to halt its Drive west, despite threats of UN intervention. UN forces, Spear headed by JDF, US, UK, and Australian forces, make good on there promise, and throw in with India.

[Timothy OConnor]

Thanks Kilroy!

Given the difficulty in finding good info that's why I went with a "Chinese-based" force rather than a "Chinese" force. Rather than a direct confrontation with China I forsee indirect competition with them, especially by competing for energy resources. For now our economies are too intertwined for serious direct military conflict.

I suppose it's an economic version of Cold War MAD theory...but with money rather than nukes. Just this past week China hinted at a sell off of their US reserves (their "nuke option") if American politicians push too hard on the Yuan. We quickly got the message! And since China depends so much on the US (and the west in general) as a market I don't think they want direct confrontation either (bad for business).

For my hypothetical campaign setting one of the countries involved receives military aid from China, thus the Chinese hardware. Since it takes place in the near future (10-30 years?) the campaign setting assumes that current, higher end hardware is not quite as precious and might be exported more widely by major powers (who may be trading such equipment out of need for resources too). It also assumes an increase in the privatization of militaries (ie mercs) so that even currently mainstream hardware might end up in the hands of various hostile factions.

All of these trends have revealed themselves in current events such as China's greater presence in countries with oil and gas reserves, concern over water supplies in many densely populated regions, the recently announced US arms sales to Saudi Arabia, Blackwater's offer to serve in Darfur as contract peace keepers, and of course the large number of mercs in Iraq.

Wargamers spent much of the Cold War gaming the unthinkable: a direct military confrontation with the Soviet Union. Meanwhile, there were world wide wars of smaller scope but they were fairly constant and often very intense (Vietnam, Afghanistan, Angola, the Middle East, etc).

So, my hypothetical campaign and fictional setting looks at the most likely scenarios: lots of smaller wars fought either direcly by local combatants (over water or ideology for example) or fought as proxies by the likes of the US, China, Russian, Europe, and various anti-colonial or rebel forces around the world (21st century energy development will look a lot like a form of colonialism to many). This form of proxy warfare can be seen in last summer's war in Lebanon, Saudi and Iranian influence in Iraq, and Pakistan's inability to prevent some of its own regions from providing support for the Taliban in Afghanistan.

From a purely wargaming perspective this provides an opportunity for greater variety in scenarios and hardware deployed. Rather than the usual simple "Horde-O-T72s" swarming a small but highly skilled and determined "Team Yankee" we have the opportunity for something akin to late 19th century colonial wargaming. And with GHQ's wonderful modern infantry (more merc and armed irregulars please!) the focus can be on true combined arms ops rather than masses of tanks with dismounts serving only as speed bumps.

Even multi-sided scenarios are possible with local opposing rebel factions, central government troops of dubious loyalty, foriegn regulars, and mercs. This may sound outlandish but it's happening in Iraq and Afghanistan.

[Atticus]

wow, very cool ideas guys. i really like the north korea ideas too. the one where kim jong il has the heart attack was a good one. ghq needs to come out with some chinese infantry packs! and i'd really like some updated US troops [/quote]

[kilroy]

Getting back on track, here is some video I found on You tube of t-80, t-90s, and even what looks like a T-95 BLACK EAGLE in action.

about half way into the video, The tank Parked at the bottom of the ramp, next to the pinkish building, is a picture of a T-95 Black eagle prototype, without the camo net on the turret.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiuwiDyj ... ed&search=

[Noble713]

Getting back on track, here is some video I found on You tube of t-80, t-90s, and even what looks like a T-95 BLACK EAGLE in action.

about half way into the video, The tank Parked at the bottom of the ramp, next to the pinkish building, is a picture of a T-95 Black eagle prototype, without the camo net on the turret.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiuwiDyj ... ed&search=

The T-95 and the Black Eagle are not the same tank.

The T-80UM2 Black Eagle features a Black Eagle turret on a T-80 hull, and has 6 road wheels. This was just a one-off experiment.

The actual Black Eagle prototype, which is featured extensively in this video, has a special stretched T-80U hull with 7 road wheels. There is no T-designation for it, only the prototype designation of Object 640. The company that built it, Omsktransmash (makers of the T-80), has gone bankrupt.

The T-95 has never been seen outside of concept sketches. It features a totally unmanned turret, with the entire crew in the hull. It is designed by Uralvagonzavod which makes the T-72 and T-90.

[jb]

awesome videos! Tanks for da links

[paul]

Great video.

Russia's vast oil reserve is going to allow them to continue to build and equip their forces with some nice military hardware. Based on the videos (short of actual combat) you can say the Russians have continued their expertise in tank designs.

[kgpanzer]

does anyone have info on the Hrisantema russian AT missiles? also are they top attack?

Cheers
Anthony

[Timothy OConnor]

from:

http://www.armscontrol.ru/atmtc/Arms_sy ... atinfo.htm

(scroll down to see AT-X-15 info)

The AT-X-15 Krizantema (the X designated that it is not yet in production) is a heavy vehicle-mounted laser-beam riding antitank guided missile. The AT-X-15 has a range of 5000 meters, a speed of 170 m/s, and its 150-mm warhead can penetrate up to 800 mm of RHA. Other details are not currently available.

also see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%90%D0%A2-15_Springer

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land ... antema.htm

Tim

[kgpanzer]

Tim

thanks for those links

Cheers
Anthony