Flames of War First Look

[Extra Crispy]

Well, that's why I'm trying "half-scale" FoW. I'm adding a non-linear unit activation turn sequence and hidden movement. Otherwise I take the rules pretty much as written. Then I use micro-armor and half-scale rulers. So FoW players will still know infantry move 6 they just use my ruler. Plus I only do scenarios, not "points." I like FoW because you can find payers, it plays fast and FUN.

The main issue I have with FoW is not the game but the players. If you argue rules and points great, but you're not my kind of gamer. For me, the players come first. Get a good group of gamers together and I'll play anything. But even my favorite period and rule set becomes a chore if everyone else around the table is an insufferable ** CENSORED **.

[dougeagle]

I thought that this thread had ceased to exist, but apparently not.

Last month, I managed to get to Calgary to visit friends and family and played FOW with the gaming buddy of mine that I played against quite a bit. It was fun, I lost within 3 turns, but we continued on and eventually I won the overall battle. My 2 of 3 remaining StuG IIIF/8 destroyed all of his Grants and Crusaders, my Panzer III J's machinegunned his infantry. It pretty much came down too who needed to roll and fail their company morale (I think), but in the end, it was me. That its what I like about him, and a few others, even if you lose and want to play RIGHT to the bitter end, then we do that.

Afterwards, Darren, my gaming buddy and I were talking about FOW with Micro Armour. Thus I started to write up a set of rules for this using the 1:5 scale for platoons etc. Not for shooting. Where Flames of War is 1:1 (1 tank= 1 tank etc), 1 tank= 1 platoon, 1 infantry stand= 1 infantry platoon. This allows for battalion sized battles. Shooting uses the same ROF from Flames of War.
Example: A Panzer 38t in Flames of War has a ROF of 2, AT 6, Firepower 4+. A platoon of 5 Panzer 38t has a total ROF of 10. Using the 1:5 scale, a Panzer 38t stand (platoon) will only have 2 shots. But a full company, using the FOW TO&E, of 4 platoons will have a total of 8 shots.

That is what I have figured out thus far. But, just recently, I have traded off some of my DAK infantry in favor of going towards the Italians on the Eastern Front for Flames of War. Playing another force that is maybe conscripted etc sounds like for a fun game. Plus, I couldn't pass up the chance too field 10 platoons either

[dougeagle]

But then, out of the blue, one of the FOW gamers shows up on our club forum again. So I am going to haul out the old FOW rules and introduce the player to Micro Armour.

The only thing I will do is convert inches to cm, it seems better that way.

Let's hope this goes well...

Actually there Grant, from some of the others from the FOW forum have stated that they play using inches. Seems to give more of a 'realistic' approach to the game. One had stated that the 40" range for the 88, Tier I and II seem to match up pretty good. The only changes that they made was shortening the Infantry shooting and the HMG ranges. I think the infantry went from 16" to 10" and the HMG went from 24" to 16". Makes sense to me as well.

Just a thought though.

[Timothy OConnor]

Recently, my local gaming club has seen the absolute death of FOW. It's so dead, it's turned to dust. My local store even cleared it out at 75% off, just to dump it to make room for other stuff. That's really dead.

I've seen this process play out at four different stores. I no longer play FOW but still game WWII in 15mm (I collect moderns in 1/285 from GHQ and 15mm). FOW close out sales have been a great way to build a large collection at much lower cost!

The problem for B&M shops is that a local market for 15mm WWII figures is very much a niche (at least compared to mass/larger market hobbies like video games and card games). It can expand a bit with popular rules but ultimately the rate of sales peaks and then falls off as the local market is saturated. The shop is then stuck with a large inventory of figures which gather dust until being sold at a discount.

[1ComOpsCtr]

Cama,

A single Games Workshop tank costs $45.00, making a platoon of 5 tanks over $200.
GW infantry costs $9.00 for 3 figures making a unit of 50 figures cost $150.

FOW lists a platoon of 5 Mk IV tanks for $45.00. A Platoon of Mk IVs from GHQ costs $9.00. You get 50 figures for $9.00 plus two packs of vehicles for $18.00 (total $27.00) compared to the Battlefront PzGren. Company with the same for $68.00.

To recreate a PzGren Unit from the FOW site with a platoon of tanks in support would cost $350. from GW, $113 from Battlefront, and $36.00 from GHQ... Really big difference. Oh, I did forget the FOW stands which I like quite a bit and am trying to make fit what I want to do for my Afrika Corps campaign...

Will

[Mk 1]

cama commented:
Saturation is what I think killed FOW. People built their army, didn't need to add to it, maybe bought a second army, and then they were done.

He he he. No risk of that happening to me with micro armor!

I've built "my" army. And my "second" army. And my "third", "fourth", "fifth", etc. etc. armies.

And after 30+ years I'm still adding to my first army!

1st: WW2 Soviets.
2nd: WW2 Germans. (Sold it off in about 1976. Didn't want Germans, bought to arm opponents, sold it off to my primary opponent.)
3rd: WW2 British. (Mostly gone now ... few trailings left.)
4th: Modern Soviets. Well, modern in 1981, that is.
5th: Modern British. That didn't last long. Never upgraded from Chieftains.
6th: Modern US Army. M60A3s and M113s.
7th: Modern French.
8th: Modern Chinese.
9th: WW2 French.
10th: Modernized USMC. M1A1s, LAV-25s and AAV-7s. (Started with a few M60A1s and LVTP7s.)
11th: WW2 US.
12th: WW2 Italians.
13th: WW3 Romanians (Mostly acquired, but few painted yet.)

"And then they were done." Hehehehehe. Done. Right.

[thenorthman]

I didn't know it had died. Of course thiings up here in Alaska seem to take a year or two after the normal pattern of events in the lower 48.

Although in every game and every rule and every different miniature line there is an ebb and flow of when it is popular and when it slightly down.

What makes them different is if they can weather this down turn. What has hit FOW is they just released there Late war rules and alot of things that were at stores can't be used for this period. (Well they can but nobody would field a bunch of T-28's against some King Tigers. My local store got caught with a bunch of excess Soviet stuff (Battlefront snet the worng order to them and the owner decided to keep it rather than go through the hassle of returning it, I tried to tell him it was a mistake to do that but that is a different subject.) I fully expect him to put it up at 50% in another 8 to 9 months though. Unless he has me sell it on ebay for him.

At any rate back to the subject. Is it truely dead in the lower 48 or just some communities? When I hear of 24 to 48 folks showing up to tournaments it just dosn't seem like it is a national downturn, but rather a regional down turn.

Sean

[thenorthman]

Well cool. It is probably dead for me as well personaly. I'll keep my Hungarian army with the few bits of German Allies they can use but sell everything else!

More Micro Armour that way.

Need to get more Vietnam stuff. Espeically the riverine stuff.

Sean

[tstockton]

Gentlemen,

I've been following this thread with some interest... I would say I'm in the camp that anything that gets more folks involved in historical gaming is a good thing, because some of those folks will eventually "wander" into our particular area and join us, thus increasing our numbers and the amount of money spent here... which will in turn lead our favorite producers to make more -- and different! -- products available for us to buy, which brings them more money... and so on, and so on.

I've done just a wee bit of looking around at the FOW miniatures -- honestly, from most of what I've seen, the GHQ models look just as detailed. At the same time, I wonder what someone like Ritter or pushbike or pmskaar or cama could do with a model of "that size"... and have been sorely tempted to purchase a few and experement with them.

Of course, I get "severly tempted" every time I see something I don't have... some of the wonderful 1:2400 GHQ ships I've seen posted here on the Forum... or ACWBill's Civil War figures (and especially the artillery!)... I guess my problem is that if it's "cool", then I want some! I guess that just makes me a big kid...

And then there's another thought -- if one can play FOW with GHQ (or anybody's) miniatures... then why couldn't one play GHQ (or anybody's) rules with FOW miniatures? Again, if it gets more folks involved in our hobby... a good thing, no?

Anyway, that's my two cents worth... for now...

Regards,
Tom Stockton

[Timothy OConnor]

cama wrote

I think what makes GHQ popular is the sheer amount of miniatures that they have.

That's what convinced me to use GHQ for moderns. I've learned one can't do modern war above company level in 15mm because there are so many basic troop types unavailable in that scale (eg American self propelled 81mm mortars). But GHQ makes just about everything one needs including new stuff like the Stryker and special stuff like up-armored Humvees.

I still like 15mm figures because of the heft and ease of handling, but if starting WWII gaming over again I would use GHQ instead of BF. I've been using Litko's 3mm thick wood bases for my GHQ moderns and they're a perfect balance between usability and "looks". For infantry I'm using 1" squares with 3-4 figures, for command infantry stands 1" diameter circles, and for vehicles 1" wide stands with depth varying by vehicle length (I don't like the "official" 1"x1" basing in the GHQ rules for all vehicles...using deeper bases provides a visually consistent "margin" around the vehicle that looks nice). These thick bases make handling and even finding troops on a terrain cluttered table much easier.

[dougeagle]

No, dead locally - here in central Alberta. Other areas are flourishing.

Hey Grant, back when I was in Calgary, there were only a few of us as well that played once in awhile. I think out of maybe 30 or so people in the Calgary area, I only played against about 6. 1 is from Edmonton, so that makes 7 people that played FOW. A couple of members from TAC checked it out one day and they like the mini's but didn't care for the game all that much due too the fact that it wasn't 'in depth' to them, plus alot of other issues. In some ways, I do agree, especially with artillery ranges, infantry ranges and so forth.
Basically, I'm not sure about FOW right now. I am more interested in seeing the Early War period, such as seeing if the 37mm Pak36 can take out a Char Bis on it's flank in ambush

[Extra Crispy]

I'm just finishing up my infantry. I'm using 1/2 inches in place of inches but otherwise leaving the rules as written.

I'll post some pics when I have something to show!